Eurispes, Shoah: meeting with students on Holocaust Remembrance Day
This morning a meeting was held, promoted by Liceo “G.M. Dettori” in Tempio Pausania and Eurispes. Students at the Sardinian high school have been discussing the Shoah in recent days, starting with an analysis of the data on the prevalence of anti-Semitism in our country contained in the 32nd Italy Report.To mark the Day of Remembrance,Eurispes President Gian Maria Fara met by videoconference with two fifth-year classes from the Classics and Humanities courses.
Giuseppe Pulina (teacher) – Today Eurispes meets our school, Liceo Dettori in Tempio Pausania, and in doing so interfaces with the entire world of Italian schools. It is doing so to present the data of the survey on anti-Semitism contained in the Italy Report of 2020.
Concetta Cimmino (Headmistress of the Liceo Dettori) – Remembrance Day is a day that leaves one enormously moved. I don’t think there are any suitable words to introduce a memory, Remembrance in particular. I hope that boys and girls, thanks to this confrontation with Eurispes, can begin or continue to mark a step in their lives so that Memory is not just a memory.
Students’ questions and the answers given by the President of Eurispes, Gian Maria Fara follow.
1) Anita Tirotto – What professional researchers did you recruit to carry out your survey on anti-Semitism?
It’s not that we recruit researchers at every opportunity. The Institute has its own network of researchers and interviewers, it has a very active presence on the ground, built up over almost forty years of activity (we will be forty years old in 2022). Most of these researchers come from the academic world, from the world of universities; the Institute has links with the most important Italian and international universities. So they are young sociologists, economists and jurists. The Institute’s approach to all the topics it researches is always interdisciplinary, so these are smart young people with university degrees who have a keen interest in research. Consider that around 300 people work on the Italy Report.
2) Anna Maria Uzzanu – With regard to the statistical surveys you carry out, how do you choose the statistical population in such a way as to represent all the country’s varied socio-economic and cultural realities? .
It’s simple: there’s a technique called social research methodology and technique, according to which a sample is constructed by reproducing in a small way the social articulation of the country. When constructing a sample, the respondent’s educational qualification, age, profession and geographical location are taken into account. The sample that is constructed must be representative of the entire Italian population, so each sample has “x” males and “x” females, “x” young people by age group, “x” more mature people. That is, the statistical construction of a sample that is considered representative of the population. Normally, if the sample is well constructed and adheres to reality, the survey results are also extremely interesting. Then the problem is not only the construction of the sample (which is a technical fact, because constructing a sample that is representative of the Italian population is quite simple), the problem is the questions: what questions do you ask and what answers do you expect. Those who do research like us and have an exclusively scientific approach to research try to ask questions that do not already have an answer. We are driven and stimulated by curiosity, we are not interested in the public opinion telling us what to think. The questions must be asked seriously, intelligently, objectively, and must give the respondent the opportunity to express their opinion, their position, their opinion in total freedom. The questionnaires that are collected are absolutely anonymous, so they go into a large database which then analyses the answers. All in a very aseptic way. I only know the results of the surveys when the data are extrapolated from the computer; even though I am the President of the Institute, I have no possibility of intervening to modify or direct the results. Sometimes the results surprise me too, but that’s the way it is. The Institute owes its authority and credibility to the scientific nature of the work it has demonstrated over the years.
3) Sara Sotgiu – We have analysed the data and results of the surveys. Are surveys exploited only and exclusively by associations that protect religious minorities, or do they also fight discrimination in general?
Data, when they are considered serious, credible, scientific, are used by everyone. They are used by associations, institutions and the media. For example, in the days leading up to the 27th, a large number of Italian newspapers, radio stations and television stations referred to our data to point out, with concern, the growth of this denialist front. The data, once disclosed, no longer belong to us, they belong to the political community, to the institutional community and to the world of information, which uses and manages them, usually in an appropriate manner and in a completely autonomous way with respect to us. At most, we are called upon to make statements or give interviews, but the data, once put on the Net, belong to everyone. I notice a great sensitivity towards this information on the Shoah, as evidenced by the large number of mentions in newspapers, but also in Parliament, during debates and parliamentary questions. The media have made extensive use of this data and information. I believe that between 400 and 500 newspaper articles have been published on this page of the Italy Report.
4) Chiara Chinni – Do the people selected for the surveys often refuse to take part in the survey? If so, what is the average age of the people who do not want to be involved in the study?.
Generally speaking, we do not have this kind of difficulty. First of all, because the filling in of the questionnaires, the participation, takes place vis a vis and therefore there is always a relationship of knowledge between the interviewer and the interviewee, but people respond quite willingly. Moreover, we do not carry out surveys of a political nature, either statutorily or institutionally. We are not a polling institute; the poll, for the Institute, is one of the technical instruments of social research. We do not carry out surveys to find out who will win the elections tomorrow morning, or what the popularity of the current politician is; the Institute uses statistical surveys and opinion polls to address only issues of social, economic and cultural relevance. The Institute only deals with social issues, economic and cultural relevance through statistical surveys and opinion polls. Therefore, when the respondents are not asked questions concerning their voting attitudes, but rather more general and perhaps a little more serious, deeper issues, people respond without great reservations. Perhaps, for certain questionnaires – just think that the questionnaire with which the Italian Report is constructed has almost one hundred questions, therefore it is tiring, heavy to manage – it may happen, on some occasions, that the interviewee does not know how to answer one question rather than another, because he/she does not have the necessary preparation or does not have the elements to evaluate the theme and therefore give a complete answer. For this reason there is also the option “I don’t know” in the questionnaire, but usually everything is done very fluently.
5) Daniela Muzzu – As we have already mentioned, anti-Semitism is a widespread scourge on the Italian scene and this also emerges from your survey. In particular, in the 32nd Eurispes Report, [the sheet] which deals precisely with anti-Semitism, the data are organised by dividing the statistical population according to the age, education and political affiliation of the people interviewed. We asked ourselves whether there is also a subdivision according to the geographical region to which they belong and, therefore, whether a geographical area where anti-Semitism is more widespread has emerged. As far as Sardinia is concerned, what do the data look like?
It is clear that among the variables, one of the main ones is that of geographical belonging. If the sample has to be representative of the whole Italian population, obviously there are also Sardinians, as well as Sicilians or Calabrians or Venetians. Representative of the Italian population means that the distribution of the population in all regions, provinces and most municipalities is taken into account. The Sardinians are not in a bad way, they are within the average we have indicated: we are neither better nor worse off. There is a widespread attitude, of a general nature, that is often linked, rather than to extreme convictions, to cultural factors, ignorance, and people’s preparation.
6) Alessandra Carboni – I wanted to ask you if your study on anti-Semitism shows that culture and schooling, in this case, can really help prevent the onset of racial prejudice.
This is what I said at the beginning, in the short introduction: education, culture, and knowledge are the salt of living together. If one does not inform oneself, does not read, does not use the means that, among other things, post-modernity makes available to us, it is clear that one will have less chance of getting an idea of how the world is going. It is clear that people of a certain culture and preparation express judgements and opinions that are profoundly different from those expressed by uncultured people. The only real weapon to combat phenomena of this type, or subcultures of this type, is training, education, and therefore the school has an absolutely central role.
7) Gabriele Verre – I would like to ask you: how is the problem of anti-Semitism perceived today by the small Jewish communities in Italy? So, not in the national sense but also by those people who have experienced indirectly, or directly, the stories of such a serious event..
We have a very intense, very cordial relationship with the national Jewish community. Of course, there are settlements, colonies, let’s call them that, of the Jewish community throughout Italy; in some cities they are more marked, in others much less so. The Jewish community, as a whole, is seriously concerned by this resurgence of the phenomenon, but we are all concerned. We are all concerned because the problem is not only of Jews – of Italian citizens who profess that religion. The concern is of a general nature, because the objective must be not to give any space to certain positions, which are absolutely dangerous. There are obviously several types of response; I spoke earlier about the role of the school, but in my opinion the role of the mass media (radio, television, newspapers) is decisive, and they must work to spread good knowledge. The real problem is that, often, the mass media, especially in complex societies, do not always work for the creation of meaning, but contribute to deconstructing or destroying meaning. The media play an absolutely important role in shaping public opinion and cultures, so they have the task of disseminating good information too, good knowledge, but, above all, I think it is important to keep our guard up at all times. Talking about the Shoah, on 27 January, is a very nice, very nice thing: we start talking about it a week before, the radio broadcasts reports, the television shows us films – I have seen, for the third time, Schindler’s List – and then everything ends there and we talk about it again on 27 January. On these themes and problems we should always keep our attention high, never lower our guard, because we are dealing with cultures, subcultures, absolutely dangerous.
8) Alice Murru – Is anti-Semitism, today, to be considered a phenomenon linked to religious prejudices only?
We live in a complex society and we pretend to give simple answers to this complexity; we think we can solve everything with a slogan or two lines. The real problem is that a complex society demands complex answers, and this issue has different projections, different facets, which affect certain attitudes – problems of a religious nature and also of a cultural, political and economic nature. One thing is for sure: some phenomena tend to manifest themselves and assert themselves in periods of crisis, including economic crises. So there is certainly a link between the economy, difficulties and the emergence and affirmation of certain phenomena. When one lives in times of difficulty, there is always a tendency to try to identify the cause and, usually, also to build an enemy on whom to unload one’s anxieties, tensions and disappointed expectations. Minorities are often the object of this culture: we look for the person responsible for our fears and insecurity, with the damage we all know.
9) Federica Mannu – Analysing the tables of the Report, it can be seen that the presence of anti-Semitic positions is directly proportional to the increasing age of the interviewees. In your opinion, what is this fact caused by and what are the factors that influence it?
The answer is in the question. The youngest are also the best informed – whether they want to be or not – and they end up being wiser than those who are not so young, who instead neglect their own education and interest in knowledge. As I said at the beginning, I am particularly happy to see that the youngest, who are the ones furthest away from the Shoah – seventy-five years have now passed -, who have never had a direct relationship and knowledge, not only with the Shoah but also with the survivors of the Shoah, are also the ones who travel, read, study, inform themselves and consequently have a cultural background that allows them to have a more informed attitude towards this, but also towards many other issues. It is clear that if one knows things, one is also able to express a judgement on things. Very often, however, our judgments are not supported by knowledge or culture, they are freewheeling judgments, more like supporters than informed people. That’s the whole problem. Fortunately, our young people, who today have more opportunities to be informed than previous generations, are able to express a maturity that is comforting and encouraging. The meeting and the chat we are having this morning go in this direction. I don’t see any ‘old men’ around you, you are all young and smart.
10) Giada Amadori – I wanted to ask you a question with reference to the event that we recently saw in the United States, the assault on the Capitol, which we could define as an assault on democracy. I saw interviews and news reports in the American media and I saw that many of the demonstrators were wearing T-shirts glorifying anti-Semitic hatred. I wanted to ask whether you think anti-Semitism is more widespread in America, or whether we have any estimates to make a comparison between Europe or between Italy and non-European Countries, like the United States in this case.
I have the feeling that anti-Semitism is perhaps more widespread in the United States than in Europe for a very simple reason: anti-Semitism is one of the faces of racism, and the United States is a country that has long cultivated a racist vocation. As you know, until the 1960s, the US lived almost under a South African-style segregation regime. Black people were not allowed to sit next to white people when travelling by train or bus. There was even segregation within the armed forces. So the US has a long and established racist tradition, which is also accompanied by a certain anti-Semitic tradition. Look, knowing history often helps to understand problems. Just think, before the United States entered the war – I’m referring to the Second World War – it’s not that the Americans were so convinced that they had to come to Europe and wage war against Hitler. The Nazi and Fascist regimes were, on balance, well regarded by the American political, economic and industrial establishment. The real enemy for Americans was communism, so all those who were not communists or were against communists were friends. Bedouin logic: friends of my friends are friends, enemies of my enemies are my friends. So they had a very tolerant attitude towards the Nazi and fascist regimes that had established themselves in Europe and they were also very reluctant to go to war. Then they were pulled a little bit by the British and other things that are now too complex to explain. But in the US there has always been a strong racist and anti-Semitic background. Europe, however, is no different. Germany on the one hand, France on the other – which, in these very days, is facing a problem that is more widespread than the governments themselves thought. It is not that the French behaved so well towards the Jews during the Second World War, just as we Italians did not behave so well either, given that 8,000 Jews of Italian nationality disappeared in the German extermination camps. Fortunately, apart from a few sporadic cases, we did not have concentration camps and did not actively participate in mass extermination; even if the Racial Laws gave a big hand to the isolation and deportation of the Jews. Then there is the other anti-Semitic tradition of the Eastern countries: Hungary, Poland, ex-Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Belarus. There has always been a very strong anti-Semitic, anti-Jewish attitude there.
11)Gianni Bellu – On the basis of the Eurispes research presented in the 32nd Italy Report, in which it emerges that younger citizens are more aware that manifestations of anti-Semitism are not isolated cases – a tendency that increases, however, with advancing age – I was wondering, precisely, does one have to have confidence in young people?
Absolutely, you have to have it. Because we older generations have done all the damage that is possible and imaginable. You have the task of repairing them and putting everything back on track. The younger generation, your generation, is the future. Ours is a generation of action, but more a generation of testimony, because we have already done all the damage that could be done. So the world is yours, the future is you. You are the ones who have to build a better society than the one we have been able to build, you have to be able to live and commit yourselves with values such as equality, understanding, collaboration, fraternity and respect for others as reference points. I, for example, have always preferred to deal with people who think differently from me. I get terribly bored talking to people who think exactly like me. It’s good to deal with otherness, because that produces richness and gives you the chance to understand the other person and enrich each other. I think that the attitude of young people today is much more secular than the one we had as kids, who were much more marked by ideological affiliation. We used to get up in the morning and know for sure what it meant to be on the “left” or the “right” in politics. Today, all this has lost its value, not least because it is no longer clear what one is and what the other is. Ideologies have been overcome. You are structurally and intimately more secular and more willing to confront those who think differently. You have opportunities and possibilities that our generations did not have. For example, when I left Tempio, in Olbia there was a pier called ‘la bianca’ (the white one), it was the pier where very few ships docked; the ships were wrecks and you were afraid they would sink on the way, in short, they were real barges, a terrible journey. I was 16/17 years old, I ran away and left. But I was one of the few who managed to get away compared to the rest of the population. This is to tell you that the journey was long, difficult, complicated. You left for the continent and it seemed like “who knows where you were going”. Young people today not only move from one city to another, from Sardinia to the Continent, but I have had the opportunity to meet young people who tell me about places they have seen that I have never seen. Young people who have been around the world, in Japan, China, Latin America, the United States: our generation didn’t have that opportunity. You have the opportunity to learn, to understand, to interact with otherness, and this makes you rich, much richer than the generations that preceded you.
12)Nicolo Inzaina – Since 2000 we have witnessed great changes, which have changed the whole of society. I wonder if these changes have influenced, in some way, the phenomenon and, above all, if there has been some form of degeneration of the problem itself.
All changes produce phenomena, for better or for worse. Some phenomena can be positive, others negative. It is certain that when the social network tends to disarticulate, the subjects are faced with a loss of reference points and rationality. Using the metaphor of the family: if everything goes well at home, if father and mother get along well, if brothers and sisters have a good relationship, if the family works, you work too. If the family is broken up, you too begin to have some difficulties, some problems are transferred from the family to society. It depends on the ability of the social organisation to give coherent answers to all its participants. Of course, in a society where the rich get richer and richer and the poor get poorer, some have everything, others little or nothing, even the development of personalities is subject to pressure and setbacks.
13)Danilo Sias -Today is Remembrance Day and we thought that reflecting on the problem of anti-Semitism today is one of the best ways to keep memory alive; I would add, also, to keep it away from rhetoric, analysing the present to prevent such phenomena from happening again. Do you agree with this view and how can and how should memory be kept alive today?
Well, how can I not agree, I confirm everything said so far. The risk that in some way the question wants to represent is that of rhetoric, that everything ends in the rhetoric of celebration. As I was saying before, the 27th of January must be the 1st of January, the 30th of August, the 20th of September, that is, we must not entrust such relevant, important and decisive issues and problems to a single day. The Day of Violence against Women: well, during this day there is no violence against women, all the other days there is. It ends, in fact, in this way. The day of celebration is fine, and a certain rhetoric in conjunction with this day is understandable, but we have to think about developing daily strategies of meeting, confrontation, on the major issues that cross our society. And this is one of those issues, and this is why the commitment must be constant. This is why I insist on the aspect of education, of schools. Schools must be able to take responsibility not only for passing on what Prof. Pulina is trying to teach you about philosophers and the evolution of philosophical thought over the centuries. The school must also commit itself to using its knowledge to confront everyday reality, otherwise it is of little use. I still think that school, education, and media’s attitude is key. We don’t have to wait until 27th January to see the television channels producing a continuous stream of films on the Shoah. This theme, in our minds, must be present on a daily basis along with many others. We must create a sensitivity that also gives us the possibility to react when faced with attitudes we do not share.
CONCLUSIONS
Concetta Cimmino (Headmistress of the Liceo Dettori) – I would like to thank the girls and boys who comfort us with their commitment. Occasions such as these serve to provide children with moments and food for thought. History and philosophy, excellently represented by Prof. Pulina, must be used as a tool to read reality, to prepare for the future while keeping the past in mind. Travel, school, mass media are tools, they are training opportunities. And the school, in all its organisational forms, which are often neglected, is very committed to the objective of giving students the tools to transfer knowledge correctly and, therefore, to develop freedom of thought.
Gian Maria Fara – I will always be a defender of the role of schools. I believe that schools are one of the most important agencies of meaning and orientation, but this conviction clashes with the attitude society has towards schools. We have been very good over the last decades in trying to demolish what is good in this country. Ours was a school that functioned, a school that produced culture, a school that produced meaning, and we are mortifying it in cultural and organisational terms. Politicians seem to be marginally interested in schools; if you think of what other Countries allocate in terms of resources to education and training compared to what we allocate, you can’t help but feel sorry for yourself. Any good policy can only start from the affirmation of the role of the school and the strengthening of its organisational and educational capacities. And this is why the Institute, which is an institute that produces knowledge and culture, is so interested in training. Our researchers come from Italian schools. Some of our researchers, some of the young people who come to our Institute are very talented, prepared and culturally equipped. On many occasions, unfortunately, this is not the case: we often find ourselves faced with graduates who have difficulty putting grammar and syntax together, and this is a great disappointment, a defeat. Fortunately, there are young people who use school for what it is meant to do and there are teachers who take their job seriously, as you do at the moment.
Students also took part in the meeting: Nicolò Abeltino, Giulia Antona, Anna Azzena, Federico Baltolu, Federica Battino, Anastacia Copes, Daniele Diana, Giovanni Fontana, Federica Marras, Martina Nicolli, Lorenza Nuvole, Francesca Pani, Marta Sanna, Giulio Satta, Anna Rau, Dorothy Tocco, Lisa Uscidda..
The report was also published in the Eurispes online magazine.
